Altaria · Roaring Skies (ROS) #74

7 comments

1. 

   Warnock 2022

   (2 years ago)

   This ability returned on FST Dunsparce. Even though {C} types can’t hit for weakness, they seem to enjoy the occasional *immunity* from weakness…

   Reply
2. 

   Ambassador

   (2 years ago)

   Pursuant to a comment I made yesterday on N1 Electabuzz, regarding the ambiguity of the way ‘effect’ is applied in the TCG.

   ROS Altaria’s Ability, Clear Humming, says all {C} Pokémon you have in play has no Weakness. BKP Zebstrika‘s Zap Zone says that damage from attacks from any – here we’ll say ‘of your opponent’s’ – {L} Pokémon in play won’t be affected by any effects on your Pokémon.

   A ruling was issued regarding the interaction between Zebstrika attacking Altaria directly;
   “Zap Zone refers to ‘any effects on your opponent’s Active Pokemon’, but the term ‘any effects’ does not include effects that alter Weakness or Resistance. So in this case Zebstrika’s attack will NOT be increased for Weakness, due to Clear Humming.” – https://compendium.pokegym.net/category/4-abilities/clear-humming/

   I don’t really get how this makes sense. Eliminating Altaria’s Lightning weakness is an effect Clear Humming is applying to Altaria, and where is this “does not include effects that alter Weakness or Resistance” coming from? The usual answer when rulings don’t make sense is that they make sense when you revisit the original JP text, but the translations here look fairly 1-to-1, with no real room for difference in how they’d be understood or applied.

   At this point, I would expect that any ruling in EN is being made to bring things in line with how the JP edition is played, but IMO this seems to be idiosyncratic to the English edition, informed by legacy/baggage text/rulings that implied Weakness and Resistance are somehow effects, or effects affecting them are…not effects? It would be really interesting if anyone knows how this interaction, or anything similar* was/is handled in the Japanese TCG.

   *FST Dunsparce and ASR Hisuian Decidueye V offer a virtually identical interaction in the current meta, right?

   Reply
   • 

     Warnock 2022Ambassador

     (2 years ago)

     Thanks for sharing this — it helps me understand Fusion Strike Energy better, too!

     Reply
   • 

     TwylisAmbassador

     (2 years ago)

     This is one area of the “effect” murkiness that’s actually pretty consistent — weakness and resistance are simply not effects, and are instead “game mechanics”.
     https://compendium.pokegym.net/ruling/875/
     https://compendium.pokegym.net/ruling/876/

     I think the reasoning for this is to keep “effects” as a concept distinct from things that are printed on the card outright, because “effects” are something that get cleared by putting the pokemon back in your hand, whereas weakness and resistance, like type, retreat cost, and card name are inherent to the card. If Clear Humming is in effect, Colorless pokemon in play simply don’t have a weakness printed anymore, as if it was never there to begin with.

     Reply
     • 

       AmbassadorTwylis

       (2 years ago)

       I mean, that’s the problem I have. If Altaria is in your hand or in your deck, it has a Weakness, and supposing there was a card or attack that allowed you to search for a Pokémon with an {L} Weakness that existed, you could use it to search for Altaria. Put in play, Clear Humming’s *effect* negates its weakness, and putting it back into your hand would clear the effect. But, uh, I did find some things regarding the Japanese edition, and pointing out the ‘in play’ thing seems to be crucial.

       [1] The interaction seems to be actually the same in Japanese. FST Dunsparce and Single Strike Urshifu VMAX‘s G-MAX One Blow are the same scenario, and the same solution is offered;
       「270」ダメージになります。[…] このワザのダメージは、相手のバトルポケモンにかかっている効果を計算しない。[ https://archive.ph/wip/13n0J ]
       “The attack does 270 damage. […] The damage is not affected by effects on the opponent’s Active Pokémon.”

       [2] ポケモンwiki’s glossary of TCG terms very, very broadly defines 効果 [Effect] as カードによってゲームにもたらされる影響のうち#ダメージ以外のもの。[ https://archive.ph/K34Lh ]
       “Anything other than damage is an effect.”

       That is obviously a very different meaning to how we understand effect. I’m realizing I missed something about Humming Sound’s text that’s actually really consequential;

       JP: このポケモンがいるかぎり、自分の[無色]ポケモン全員の弱点は、すべてなくなる。
       JP: AS LONG AS THIS POKéMON IS IN PLAY [emphasis mine], each of your {C} Pokémon have no Weakness.
       EN: Each of your {C} Pokémon has no Weakness.

       Why does the JP specify that it is only in effect while in play? Because for them, a card’s effects apply even while not in play – unless otherwise specified!

       Why do I say this? Because if anything other than damage is an effect, that implies, for example, that HP is an effect. If that effect only applied while the card was in play, you wouldn’t be able to have cards like Level Ball that search for Pokémon with 90 HP or less, and obviously there aren’t many (any?) cards that specify they don’t have the HP printed on them that they do unless they’re in play. You can sort of go on with a lot of examples, but, uh, I do think this is actually making more sense than the way we try and understand effect.. the problem is our translations are still not up to snuff after all, because that caveat on Humming Sound shouldn’t have been left out.

       Just to confirm, the problem is consistent. For FST Dunsparce’s Ability:
       JP: このポケモンがいるかぎり、おたがいの場の[無色]ポケモン全員の弱点は、すべてなくなる。
       JP: AS LONG AS THIS POKéMON IS IN PLAY [emphasis mine], all {C} Pokémon in play have no weakness.
       EN: {C} Pokémon in play (both yours and your opponent’s) have no Weakness.

       I’m left with the impression the EN rulings are trying to preserve a more restricted definition of effect that means they are having to change how they translate cards. If that’s correct, it’s why they keep omitting “as long as this Pokémon is in play”, and it would suggest compendium ruling #876 is kind of a bandaid solution motivated to try and preserve the incorrect meaning of effect.

       There are a few things here;
       [1] We do something have attacks that say you can’t use them the next turn if you use them this turn, and we understand this to be reset if you manage to put that Pokémon into your hand and get it back into play the next turn.
       [2] The Advanced Rulebook on pokemon-card.com/rules/ is more of an authority than ポケモンwiki. Unfortunately it doesn’t outright define 効果 so we have to do some inferring and assuming.
       [3] B-06 talks about how Weaknesses and Resistances are or aren’t applied in special circumstances, but has a much cleaner time of explaining it than the way the EN rulings do. I will also note B-06 says “XYシリーズ以前の「弱点・抵抗力の計算をしない」という説明文も同様です。” suggesting the way certain things were phrased started being changed for SM – so compendium ruling #876 might not be solely prompted as an attempt to patch problems with an EN legacy definition, but trying to adopt a ruling that the JP were adding to be 1-to-1. But whereas the JP edition have been careful about how an Ability like Humming Sound is phrased, the EN edition hasn’t, so compendium ruling #876 is.. I don’t want to say gobbeldy-gook, but I will say I still don’t think it makes sense.
       [3] C-18 of said Rulebook discusses all cases of “は、ワザが使えない” [“…cannot use this attack.”] and here it says the effect is reset if it is sent to the bench or it is removed from play. That is contra the broad definition of effect I’m suggesting they use, but since they’re making a point of specifying it as a special situation where it resets an effect of a particular vs. any reaching to differentiate ‘game mechanic’ from ‘effect’ the way the EN rulings do.

       Thoughts?

       Reply
       • 

         AmbassadorAmbassador

         (2 years ago)

         I found something on pokemon-card.com’s Q&A regarding BKP Zebstrika that undermines my guessing above.

         𝑸. During my last turn, I used PHF Pachirisu‘s Trick Sticker to change the Weakness of my opponent’s Active Pokémon to {L}. During my next turn, if I use Zebstrika to attack that Pokémon, how much damage will it do?
         𝑨. It will do 100 damage.

         i.e., Zebstrika’s 50 damage attack will hit for Weakness, despite your opponent’s Pokémon only having an {L} Weakness as the result of an effect of on that Pokémon. The only way that makes sense is if Weakness and Resistance are treated as something other than effects.

         Reply
       • 

         TwylisAmbassador

         (2 years ago)

         I think “HP is an effect” isn’t the conclusion they intend when they say everything other than damage is an effect — I think HP is inherently excluded as a game mechanic, like weakness and resistance, by virtue of being an inherent property of a card. I think effects fundamentally need to be something that a player or card causes to *happen* that somehow alter the game state — and the basic parameters of a card would fall outside that purview.

         Even if the JP TCG doesn’t specify effects only apply to things that are in play, it still remains the case as a basic function of gameplay, because the deck and hand are both private. Effects being removed and not applying to cards that are private is necessary for the sake of the game being consistent and making sense for both players. A card with an ability that says “all Lightning-type pokemon have 40 more HP” wouldn’t change your ability to search out a Flaaffy with Level Ball, because until your opponent *knows* it’s a Flaaffy, no conflict would arise — which the game just circumvents by only applying effects to pokemon that are in-play (unless otherwise stated).

         The concept of hand and deck privacy is pretty core to making sense of a lot of the “effects” concept — it’s the core reason why Scoop Up Net clears literally all effects, because there’s no way for the game (or the opponent) to keep track of effects applied to cards that aren’t public (i.e. in play). The discard pile is the one area where this gets murky again, since it’s neither private nor in play, but its contents still usually aren’t affected by anything unless stated.

         Reply