Buzzwole-GX · Crimson Invasion (CIN) #57

9 comments

1. 

   Shoopuf

   (6 years ago)

   I don’t really know the meta right now, but in a vacuum this guy doesn’t seem as good as Landorus-EX (BCR 89) was in his heyday. Jet Punch is great, same as it was on Landorus-EX. But the downside of Knuckle Impact’s all Fighting requirement, combined with the “can’t attack next turn” clause (instead of “can’t use THIS attack next turn”), and an over-costed GX attack that is really only going to be useful for the very first KO and wouldn’t be worthwhile in the late game, I can’t see why they’d do this to one of the feature cards for this set.

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   • 

     OtakuShoopuf

     (6 years ago)

     The good news? You explained your points. The bad news? Your analysis is flawed. The other good news? Because of explaining your points, I can explain where you went wrong so you may learn and become more knowledgeable. An important thing to remember is that, in the Expanded Format, both Buzzwole-GX and Landorus-EX are legal, but strategies that might have used the latter still prefer the former.

     1) At present, there is no efficient way to provide [FFC] to a Fighting Pokémon that won’t work just as well for [FFF]. Only in decks that need to run multiple Energy that don’t count as [F] will it matter, and even then the fact that you’d need [FFC] means there would be very, very little room for non-[F] providing Energy.

     2) Attack effects that reside on a particular Pokémon – like the effect from Knuckle Impact – are reset when that Pokémon leaves the Active position. This is much, much easier to deal with hitting for half as much damage (no discard) or 10 less damage (with discard) using Land’s Judgment.

     3) Absorption-GX is not the greatest GX-attack, but it is adequate. If you build to it immediately, you try to force up something big and uninjured, as you’ll be swinging for 240 damage for just three Energy, with no discard requirements or the like. Even after you take one Prize, 200 damage is still pretty good. After that, it is for those occasions where you cannot deal with the clause on Knuckle Impact.

     4) Now we are going to consider the metagame; Zoroark-GX makes hitting Fighting Weakness important. Buzzwole-GX is usually backed by at least one Pokémon-GX with a better GX-attack.

     Now, when I first saw Buzzwole-GX, I actually did NOT get all of this; I predicted the card would be mediocre, and I’ve had to eat those words since. ;)

     Reply
     • 

       ShoopufOtaku

       (6 years ago)

       Ahh, see, this is why I started with “I don’t know the meta right now”. Let me see if I can add some extra context for each of your points.

       1) What I was getting at wasn’t that Land’s Judgement was a great attack (it’s good in a pinch, only because it said “may”), but rather that I usually never saw a point in adding more Energy to Landorus (other than Strong Energy for some extra damage), and that Knuckle Impact doesn’t make me want to add 2 extra energy (Strong, regular Fighting, or otherwise) just to do 160 base damage, which even with most common damage boosters won’t be enough to OHKO today’s 200+ HP Pokemon. When you want to OHKO something because you hit it for weakness, you don’t need 160 base damage. Landorus-EX could do that with a single Strong Energy or a Muscle Band with Land’s Judgement to get it to 100 damage and have no downside.

       2) Yeah, the “can’t attack” effect goes away from benching via Switch/Escape Rope/Rush In/Stand In or whatever means, but I was pointing out more that I’d rather have an attack that did 80-100 damage for [FCC] with no special side effect (good or bad) rather than an attack that did 160 for [FFF], even if it didn’t have the downside.

       3) Not even counting that it’s the GX attack, this attack is doing the same damage output as my regular big attack for 2/3 of the game. But even worse, the attack gets worse and worse the closer I am to closing the game out. And, again, I don’t know the meta, but it seems like Marshadow-GX might work with this guy, albeit as a much more desperate option due to the low HP, but his GX attack can do 100 for 2 energy attachments, which is more like the point I was trying to make in 1). Which leads to the meta…

       4) Ok, so Zoroark-GX is in the meta. 190HP and weakness to Fighting. So then you need to do 100 damage, or just 80 if you get a chance to splash 30 onto it from Jet Punch. The Marshadow-GX can do 100 for 2 energy attachment with the GX attack. And Jet Punch with a single Strong Energy and a Choice Band will do 80 before weakness to a Zoroark-GX, which is what you’d need for KO if you splashed it earlier.

       I’m mostly basing my criticism off of the Landorus decks I saw abusing the low energy requirements of the first attack, and using Max Potions to keep the pressure on. Max Potion is still in Standard. So I could see myself playing Buzzwole-GX this way, but I would only coincidentally put enough energy on him to use his second attack in case I really needed to, and had the Switch effect ready to go next turn. At least Landorus could let you choose to just do 80 for 3 energy, which with a Strong Energy or Muscle Band meant OHKO against weakness.

       Reply
       • 

         OtakuShoopuf

         (6 years ago)

         Maybe you should stop, take some time to see how Buzzwole-GX is actually used, brush up on how Landorus-EX was actually used, and then come back to the conversation. At this point, the only real reason I have to continue this discussion is because, when I inevitably need to remind myself on how things worked during this time in the game, I don’t want to be confused by your comments.

         No, that isn’t snark. I really have had to do that before (look up stuff I couldn’t clearly remember, here and elsewhere), and I expect I’ll have to do it again. XD

         Reply
         • 

           ShoopufOtaku

           (6 years ago)

           Things certainly weren’t snarky before, but now… I’m not sure how you can honestly try to pass your remark off as anything but snark.

           I played Landorus-EX and LaserBank. It was quite good up until Seismitoad-EX (FFI 20) controlled the meta. I took a break for real life at that point. Landorus was best when you kept low energy on it and put your other energy on other guys. Otherwise you let Yveltal-EX wreck you. That’s just a fact. Brandon Salazar won Nationals in 2014 with the tactics I’m describing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hMvYFo_fF8). I DO know what I’m talking about with Landorus-EX.

           Now I already conceded the point that I don’t know this current meta. That is why I’m not entirely sure why Buzzwole is so hyped, and that’s why I started a discussion on the card. You’ve pointed out that Zoroak-GX is strong in the current meta, so I can see why Buzzwole would be good, especially considering that what made Landorus so good was the single energy attack, which is the same on Buzzwole. Buzzwole has 10 more HP, and 1 less retreat cost. If you strip out the extra attacks, and just use the Pokemon with their first attacks, they compare pretty well. I simply then was pointing out that I’d prefer the way that Land’s Judgement worked due to the “may” clause and dealing less damage when not opting for it, vs the downside of Buzzwole’s attack. And when I look at tournament winning Buzzwole decklists out right now, I see Choice Band and Strong Energy, just as I was predicting.

           But by all means, please don’t let my comments confuse you further. And that IS snark.

         • 

           OtakuShoopuf

           (6 years ago)

           I am going to try to start over again. No, not ignoring what was already said, but in trying to achieve some level of resolution. You’re mad at me for being snarky, and perhaps you should be mad at me for not giving you a better idea of the modern metagame. I am mad at you for expecting me to be a mind reader, and for not doing your homework. Oh, and for proving I am still stupid enough to get mad over such things, and when I ought to have turned in at least an hour ago… but I’ll likely lose nearly as much sleep worrying about it if I don’t try to straighten thing out now, and I can’t guarantee that a fresh attempt in the morning will actually see me in a better mood. With all that said…

           Landorus-EX – during the height of its success – performed better against its metagame than Buzzwole-GX – at the beginning of its life – is performing against its metagame. I didn’t quite understand that you were saying that at first, so I wished to state it now, because I do get what you were saying and yes, I agree with it. I don’t know if it is a fair comparison, as we are sampling a 34 month period for Landorus-EX being Standard Legal (3.5 years for it being Expanded legal) versus Buzzwole-GX being both Standard and Expanded legal for 11 weeks. Again, “weeks”. I became fixated on your reasoning; you may have meant for your second comment to be about clarification, but please try seeing it from my perspective, where you seemed to be moving the goal posts. You only mentioned that Jet Punch was just as good now as Hammerhead was back then but that was only a small part of your comment, and not very detailed; you spent most of it talking about Knuckle Impact and Absorption-GX and how they weren’t as good as Land’s Judgment. As explained, I don’t think that is really true.

           Moving onto your next post, you really need to allow that it isn’t as clear as you think it was, even in the context of this discussion. I legitimately misread a few parts, like the comment about a hypothetical attack (making me think you incorrectly remembered Land’s Judgment). Some parts you were wrong; over the long, long lifespan of Landorus-EX decks, while all focused on Hammerhead, some did build to Land’s Judgment (albeit it sparingly). It was usually used as a game finisher. You reasserted you didn’t know the metagame, but then tried to argue about HP scores and needed HP amounts as if you did. Pokémon that aren’t Pokémon-EX/GX rarely have more than 160 HP, and yes there are decks that only run a few Pokémon-EX/GX in supporting roles. Typical Basic Pokémon-EX/GX have 170-190 HP. Mega Evolutions and Evolved Pokémon-GX usually have 220 to 240, and a few even have 250… but since they Evolve, you target their lower Stages and/or settle for 2HKO’s.

           I grew frustrated with the discussion at this point: whether fair or not, it seemed like you were just going to keep changing what you said, little by little, to ensure you were right. I am familiar with such a tactic because I (unfortunately) have to work very hard not to resort to such things myself. It could be that I was projecting, but even if you were doing that… I probably just should have let the discussion drop, coming back to it later if I was really worried about it confusing me in the future. Since I really do reference these comments (among other things) when I have to cover older cards. Which I usually do; I write CotD’s five days a week, and we have Throwback Thursdays featuring older cards. I actually had a much more inflammatory comment I’d spent far too much time banging out… and settled for what I hoped was a calmer response. I even checked back on it, re-reading it later (but still before your response), and while it wasn’t perfect, I thought it was okay.

           By your third comment, you’re upset because I’m not giving you credit for knowing how Landorus-EX worked as a deck. Did it occur to you that was because I also played Landorus-EX, and after the period you’re familiar with? I still run it in the PTCGO’s Legacy Format, where it still functions in a manner similar to the deck you linked to, but as for the Standard Format, Landorus-EX decks shifted to Landobats variants, using Golbat (PHF) and Crobat (PHF). That was probably the last time Landorus-EX was really competitive. Notice how it takes until this comment, when we’re arguing, for you to get to your real purpose; you want to know if you can run Buzzwole-GX the way you used to run Landorus-EX and – as you still haven’t really learned the current metagame or what’s happened since Landorus-EX was being run that way, you drew the wrong conclusions.

           Decks focused on Buzzwole-GX mostly seem to run it like this

           http://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/?id=49&show=lists

           Yes, Choice Band and Strong Energy are there. So is Max Elixir, maxed out at four so that you can try to pull off fast, early hits with either Knuckle Impact or Absorption-GX, at least when you need such a thing. Lycanroc-GX (GRI) is there for both its Ability and for its GX-attack. Both Max Potion and Super Scoop Up are Standard Format legal, but this deck that took first place at the most recent Regional Championship doesn’t bother with either. Poke around, and you’ll see other recent Buzzwole-GX lists not bothering with them, though some include an Acerola.

           So, at this point I’m at least two hours past when I ought to be turning in and I’ve got to go. I really am sorry I didn’t keep my cool. That holds true regardless of your own behavior, so it doesn’t matter whether I was right or wrong about that aspect of things. If you want to run Buzzwole-GX, either resign yourself to learning about it and the rest of the metagame or take the chance that an old strategy is in that sweet spot where its still relevant enough to work but not relevant enough for people to be prepared. One final thing… as this is a long comment, and I rewrote it several times before posting, I do beg your indulgence should I have erred. I may have deleted something I ought not to have, or left a chunk in that I thought I deleted. @_@

2. 

   Fletcher Thomason

   (6 years ago)

   Just a suggestion, but shouldn’t ultra beast be an option on the “is:” thing on the advanced search? There are so many ultra beasts i feel like it should be, even prism star is an option!

   Reply
   • 

     Adam Capriola Fletcher Thomason

     (6 years ago)

     Oh, I actually did add Ultra Beasts to the “is:” thing, but I forgot to add a checkbox to the advanced search form. It’s now there. Great suggestion—thanks! https://pkmncards.com/?s=is%3Aultra-beast&display=card&sort=date

     Reply
3. 

   Smurfonator

   (1 year ago)

   Big mosquito

   Reply