Sableye · Deoxys (DX) #23

11 comments

1. 

   Blob Takeshi

   (9 years ago)

   Finally… it has no weaknesses!

   Reply
2. 

   Squirchampion

   (7 months ago)

   Posts on DX Sharpedo ex suggest that even in the big 2025 people don’t understand how Weaknesses and Resistances were assigned for ADVPCG. This Sableye seems like a decent card to leave a comment on about this, because he’s a somewhat unique output of this system – I didn’t triple-check this, but he might be the only sub-100 HP Pokemon to have two resistances that isn’t a Dragon.

   Let’s go over how Weaknesses and Resistances were assigned for ADVPCG. Yes, there are exceptions, and we’ll go over them, but after we’ve established the ground rules that they are exceptions of. In no particular order;

   ⓵ Each video game type can have more than one W/R set.
   – For example, while most Water Pokemon of this block were {Weak:L,Resist:-} (examples: RS Wailord, DR Magikarp), there was a secondary W/R set for Water types of {Weak:G,Resist:-} (examples: EM Mudkip, CG Mudkip).
   – Aside: not all of these sets are equal. For example, there were two W/R sets for Lighting types, {Weak:F,Resist:M} (examples: RS Manectric, UF Mareep) and {Weak:F,Resist:-} (examples: HL Voltorb, TR Mareep), with the only difference being whether or not a card got to be resistant to Metal. (See also the {Weak:R,Resist:W} and {Weak:R,Resist:-} for Grass types.)
   – You should generally assume each type has no more than two W/R sets. (It’s hard to give you any examples of this, but think of it as an Occam’s Razor principle you should try to adhere to. The type assignments make much more sense when you accept things in this way.)

   ⓶ Each video game type can have its own W/R type groups, even if it’s not a type in the card game.
   – For example, the Ice type isn’t a literal type in the game, but cards like DR Snorunt and HP Regice have a {Weak:M,Resist:-} that is obviously separate from the Water W/R sets. This can get confusing for people because sometimes the weaknesses and resistances overlap… let’s look at one in more detail. Rock and Ground types both share some weaknesses and resistances, and to make things more confusing, there are a lot of dual types, but it helps to look up the few monotypes and see how they were handled. The cards for the mono-Rock types are Nosepass, Sudowoodo, and Regirock are all {Weak:W,Resist:-}, and the cards for the mono-Ground types are overwhelmingly {Weak:G,Resist:-} but some Groudon cards are {Weak:G,Resist:-} and some are {Weak:W,Resist:-}, so just from looking at these cards we know of one W/R set for Rock types and two W/R sets for Ground types.

   [Incidentally, the second W/R set for Rock types is {Weak:G,Resist:-}, as implied by Team Magma’s Aggron.]

   ⓷ For in-game dual types, the W/R set doesn’t seem like it necessarily has to match the ‘color’ of the card.
   – All examples so far have focused on monotypes to avoid any impression these ideas might be ‘up for debate’ but we do now start to look at more complicated cases. It’ll take a bit to establish what’s going on here, but a card like DX Sableye is a Dark type but with a {Weak:-,Resist:C} we would assume is a result of its Ghost typing. When looking at the pure-Dark types, we know of two W/R sets for them: {Weak:G,Resist:P} and {Weak:F,Resist:P}.
   When we look at the pure Ghost types (except for DX Dusclops ex, which we’ll return to later), they’re all {Weak:D,Resist:F}, so looking at them means we know of one W/R set for the Ghost types. But we do allow up to two W/R sets for each video game type, so in theory, we might assume that DX Sableye is evidence of the second W/R set for Ghost types… this leads us to something of a unique situation where our DX Sableye has a W/R set for Ghost (purple) types despite being a Dark (black) card.

   ⓸ The cards generally do not try to factor in or ‘represent’ a Pokemon’s dual type. Flying Pokemon MIGHT get to be an exception, but it’s ambiguous.
   – “Why is RS Swampert weak to Lighting? It’s resistant to them in game!” Because it doesn’t matter. RS Swampert is pretty unambiguously representing the Water type; as per idea ⓵, that gives it two options, either {Weak:L,Resist:-} or {Weak:G,Resist:-}. Of course, it’s a dual-type in game, and because of the possibility granted in idea ⓷, it could take on one of the Ground W/R sets, which would be either {Weak:G,Resist:-} or {Weak:W,Resist:-}. Out of four possible W/R sets that could be assigned to it, none of them would give it a Lightning resistance.
   – “But then why is Pelipper resistant to Fighting types? It’s clearly representing its dual type!” Maybe. However, before conceding the point entirely, it’s worth considering that Pelipper might be a Water type card, but has the W/R set for Flying Pokemon (a mismatch allowed by idea ⓷). There are no pure-Flying Pokemon in ADVPCG, but looking at the Normal/Flying types of the block, you could infer that a W/R set for Flying types is {Weak:L,Resist:F}. If you could find a Flying type that had a Fighting resistance but doesn’t have a Lighting weakness (and isn’t included in the set of exceptions), then you would have evidence of something else going on.
   – And of course you can. SS Xatu has {Weak:P,Resist:F}, which isn’t a W/R set for Psychic types, and isn’t likely to be a W/R set for Flying types. However, this might actually suggest that the card is a mistake. But although we’re going to discuss Pokemon ex as allowed to act as exceptions to any of these ideas, the Pokemon ex of the first set are all ‘by the books’ otherwise save for RS Scyther ex, who has a {Weak:R,Resist:F}, which could suggest that Scyther ex is either also a mistake, an exception because it’s an ex despite what was stated earlier, or they did consider giving Flying Pokemon special treatment for a bit before ditching the idea.

   ⓹ Dual-type cards (i.e. dual-color) still stick to a conventional W/R set. When the dual-type is ‘extra’, it isn’t considered as an providing additional options for W/R.
   – None of the Dark Pokemon in Team Rocket Returns that have one of the Dark type W/R sets (either {Weak:F,Resist:P} or {Weak:G,Resist:P}) have them unless they are already naturally a Dark type. (There are only two, Dark Houndoom and one of two Dark Tyranitar.)
   – While Team Aqua’s Walrein and Team Magma’s Aggron get to be special cases (see below exception ❸), none of the other Aqua/Magma break any of the rules, having W/R sets based on their natural types (just like the Dark Pokemon in TRR).
   – For completeness, we might mention the HL dual-types; but again, they act as expected.

   ⓺ Delta Species adhere to the above ideas such that their W/R sets are always based on their natural type(s), rather than their Delta Species type, and this applies whether it’s an additional dual-type conferred onto them or a new type that completely replaces their original typing(s).

   With all this in mind, then for each of the seventeen video game types types, it should be possible to work out no more than two W/R sets for each of them. Bear in mind that alongside SS Xatu, there might be a few other weird Pokemon in EX Sandstorm, which isn’t surprising considering the purported provenance of a number of cards in the set – this is why we’ve ignored SS Sableye, for anyone wondering. (If you do find a third W/R set of any of the types otherwise, that would be interesting.) When looking through ADVPCG cards, you will recognize the vast majority of them adhere to this system.

   There absolutely are exceptions to the ideas above, and we can talk about them (again, in no particular order).

   ❶ Shedinja and Mr. Mime ex gets to be special cases, with W/R set of {Weak:-,Resist:-}.
   – For Shedinja, this is pretty clearly meant to try and reflect Shedinja’s unique in-game gimmick/niche.
   – For Mr. Mime ex, this is clearly done to make his Magic Odds and Magic Evens Poke-Bodies work in an expected manner in any situation. (See also SV Mr Mime, whose violation of that block’s W/R rules seems to be because of his Focus Wall Poke-Body.)

   ❷ CG Jirachi ex gets to be a special case, with a W/R set of {Weak:-,Resist:-}.
   – Is this a flavor thing for the set?

   ❸ Team Aqua’s Walrein and Team Magma’s Aggron get to be special cases, and not because they’re dual-types.
   – As if it were a Pokemon ex (see below), Team Magma’s Aggron “stacks” both of the W/R sets for Rock types, ending up with a {Weak:G&W,Resist:-}. [This card actually might be the only way we’re able to figure out the second W/R set for Rock types.]
   – As if it were a Pokemon ex (again), Team Aqua’s Walrein stacks both of the W/R sets for Ice types, ending up with a {Weak:F&M,Resist:-}. [As it happens, the same as LM Walrein ex.]

   ❹ Dragon Pokemon are often an exception to much of the above.
   – Being given unique treatment throughout the TCG’s history before and after ADVPCG, this block is no exception. Complimenting complex attack costs, there are unique W/R sets for each Dragon Pokemon, usually tied to its evolution line.
   One set appears to act as a ‘default’ W/R set any of the Dragon Pokemon may use;

   {Weak:-,Resist:-} – Dratini, Dragonair, Dragonite, Altaria, Vibrava, Flygon, Bagon, Shelgon, Salamence, Rayquaza

   But there is also an underused set exclusive to one Dragon Pokemon;
   {Weak:C,Resist:-} – Rayquaza

   And a number of ‘special’ W/R sets, all having a shared {Weak:C} but different Resistances;
   {Weak:C,Resist:G&F} – Dratini, Dragonair, Dragonite, Altaria, Latios
   {Weak:C,Resist:R&F} – Bagon, Shelgon, Salamence
   {Weak:C,Resist:L&F} – Vibrava, Flygon
   {Weak:C,Resist:P&F} – Latias
   {Weak:C,Resist:W&F} – Rayquaza

   Rayquaza is particularly special, with at least three different W/R sets owing to its privileged status as a Dragon Pokemon. (There is no {Weak:L,Resist:F} Rayquaza, btw.)

   ❺ At least in the early part of the block, Pokemon ex stack W/R sets if they exceed 120 HP.
   – Remember how Team Aqua’s Walrein and Team Magma’s Aggron are “acting like” Pokemon ex? This is because they’re “stacking” W/R sets. The ambiguity of Scyther ex aside, EX Ruby and Sapphire’s ex all played it straight with a single W/R set, but as soon as EX Sandstorm, some Pokemon ex began to see stacked W/R sets, but only if they exceeded 120 HP.

   Aerodactyl ex – 100 HP – {Weak:L,Resist:F} (Flying set; only 1 set because ≤120 HP)
   Aggron ex – 150 HP – {Weak:R,Resist:G} (Metal set 1) + {Weak:F,Resist:(either G or –)} (Metal set 2?)
   Gardevoir ex – 150 HP – {Weak:P,Resist:–} (Psychic set 1) + {Weak:G,Resist:-} (Psychic set 2)
   Ampharos ex – 150 HP – {Weak:F,Resist:M} (Lightning set 1) + {Weak:F,Resist:-} (Lightning set 2)

   Notice how some of these Pokemon ex are potentially helping to fill out the second W/R sets for some of the sets whose second sets weren’t obvious?

   ❻ Later in the block, Pokemon ex may or may not stack W/R sets, and regardless of HP, based on game design.
   Now, something you might notice is that some Pokemon ex can have different stacks, and they don’t seem to always stack even when perhaps they ‘should’ because they have more than 120 HP, or in at least one case stack despite having less than 120 HP. Here are a few examples;
   – Gyarados could have either {Weak:L,Resist:-} (Water 1), {Weak:G,Resist:-} (Water 2), or {Weak:L,Resist:F} (Flying 1), and a few Gyarados cards have this. Since RG Gyarados ex has more than 120 HP, we might expect it to stack at least two of these sets, but it seems to just have Water 1. There are a number of other Pokemon ex exceeding 120 HP that don’t appear to stack W/R sets. Which sets and how many to stack was likely decided on a case-by-case basis, with the decisions likely to have been mostly made for card game balance purposes.
   – Remember that work to determine what the second W/R set for Ghost types might be, based on DX Sableye? We settled on the two sets for Ghosts being {Weak:D,Resist:F} and {Weak:-,Resist:C}. And we finally reach our friend DX Dusclops ex. Despite having less than 120 HP, he gets to stack both sets and end up with {Weak:D,Resist:F,C}. Maybe since the stack ends up with a defensive spread, he got to stack the W/R sets to make up for being an evolved Pokemon ex with such low HP…
   – ..of course, Banette ex also has low HP for an evolved Pokemon ex and has the same Ghost monotype as Dusclops ex does, but he only has the Ghost 1 W/R set. This might be a game design concession, with Dusclops ex designed to be defensive (his Poke-Body conditionally eliminates his weakness!) and Banette ex as an offensive card that is denied the defensive benefit stacking would end up conferring him.

   ❼ Some Pokemon ex may stack more than 2 W/R sets, and some W/R of the resulting stacks may be incidentally modified (either by addition or by subtraction).
   – We just finished talking about two monoghost types and their configurations, but our accounting for them cannot also be used to account for Gengar ex. With 150 HP and 2 Weaknesses and 2 Resistances, you cannot come up with a simple W/R stack that can explain his set. It looks like Ghost 1 + Ghost 2 AND ALSO Poison, and that might be what it is.
   – However, refer also to Steelix ex. Metal W/R 1 is {Weak:R,Resist:G} and we know from cards like Aggron ex that Metal W/R 2 might be {Weak:F,Resist:(G or –)}, so where does its Lightning resistance come from? Because we already established that neither of the two Ground W/R sets confer a Lightning resistance, this seems like someone’s manually added in an additional resistance to help make Steelix be a tanky ex in the card game. There might be some other Pokemon ex with extra resistances thrown in to help it become more defensive.
   – There’s also at least one case of a Pokemon ex with a weakness removed. UF Lugia ex looks like it’s stacked Psychic + Flying, but its Lighting weakness has been removed. Likely more, you can find them yourselves.

   In conclusion, while there are a number of edge cases that violate the general set of principles that were used to assign Weaknesses and Resistances for Pokemon in ADVPCG, there is a consistent, thorough, and honestly not terribly difficult logic insofar as how it was done. I don’t know whether people don’t want to understand it because they don’t like outcomes like Lighting-weak Swamperts, or just can’t, but it is absolutely not the “anyone’s guess” that some people still purport it to be.

   Reply
   • 

     SquirchampionSquirchampion

     (7 months ago)

     Whoops, you can ignore the “I didn’t triple-check this, but he might be the only sub-[120] HP Pokemon [ex] to have two resistances that isn’t a Dragon.” I was originally gonna post this on EM Dusclops ex but changed my mind so I can shoutouts to my boy sableye wut wut we own these streets (There is one intentional error in the post for people to pick up on to see if anyone’s paying attention, but that one wasn’t it)

     Reply
     • 

       SquirchampionSquirchampion

       (7 months ago)

       I looked a little more and I think idea ⓷ is only true for [1] Sableye (likely a special case) and [2] Flying Pokemon (which the game has either always or almost always treated differently). So for example, unless someone looks for and finds consistent evidence otherwise, you can completely rule out cards like Dark Slowking or DX Solrock having Grass weaknesses because they’re part Water or Rock type. They have {G} weaknesses because they’re Psychic types and weak to Bug Pokemon.

       Reply
     • 

       CharmasterSquirchampion

       (3 months ago)

       Was the intentional error the phrase “DX Dusclops ex?” Since Dusclops ex was from Emerald, not Deoxys? If this wasn’t the intentional error, I think now might be a good time to reveal what the error was.

       Also, I wonder if the Dragon Frontiers ex’s having no weakness (Or resistance) was a decision made to help them compete with whatever powercrept single prizers would be printed starting just one set later (In Japan) with the start of the Diamond and Pearl era. Of course, it wasn’t the first time Dragon types were printed with no weakness!

       Reply
       • 

         SquirchampionCharmaster

         (3 months ago)

         I don’t think that was the intentional error, no. I believe it was an error in omission of some kind, it’s been too long.

         As far as whether a Pokemon card’s W/Rs show always align with their video game W/Rs, that is both impossible since card types are a different system from the video game types, and attempting to achieve it would be poor game design for the card. In fact, when the fourth generation of the card game did attempted to make W/Rs closer to the games, it created a pretty convoluted and unsatisfying system that was abandoned and hasn’t been revisited.

         Reply
         • 

           someoneSquirchampion

           (3 months ago)

           I would still like pokemon to start trying a bit more though. Mega gengar ex from phantasmal flames is weak to fighting. The same exact type that ghost is resistant to and is weak to poison, both of which are Mega gengar’s types.

   • 

     Hâlian the Protogen Squirchampion

     (3 months ago)

     I think a card’s Weakness(es) and Resistance(s) should always align with those of that mon in the video game.

     Reply
     • 

       WhirlpoolHâlian the Protogen

       (3 months ago)

       Mega Gengar ex is weak to Fighting because that’s a stand-in for Ground type–which Poison type (represented by Darkness) is weak to. It makes perfect sense.

       Reply
3. 

   Squirchampion

   (3 months ago)

   It’s not a question of “trying”….there is nothing wrong with that card’s weakness.

   Reply
   • 

     someoneSquirchampion

     (3 months ago)

     EVERYTHING is wrong with the weakness.

     Reply